Pathfinding accuracy rewrite

Discussion of Maia's on going development, including modding.
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SimoRoth
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Re: Pathfinding accuracy rewrite

Post by SimoRoth » Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:34 am

Terrain is in large chunks as an aesthetic choice. Agents in the world path find in 1m increments, but walk freely through the environment. They avoid small items on the floor and from bumping into each other.

Not to mention... Toady doesn't have to draw the characters. Our characters are incredibly detailed high res skinned animated agents.

But at the end of the day none of those things dictate the game. The design just doesn't need hundreds of colonists.

Edit: Also I never said anything about having performance issues. I have optimisations coming up, but it's certainly not killing the game at the moment.

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Tikigod
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Re: Pathfinding accuracy rewrite

Post by Tikigod » Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:57 am

SimoRoth wrote:Terrain is in large chunks as an aesthetic choice. Agents in the world path find in 1m increments, but walk freely through the environment. They avoid small items on the floor and from bumping into each other.

Not to mention... Toady doesn't have to draw the characters. Our characters are incredibly detailed high res skinned animated agents.

But at the end of the day none of those things dictate the game. The design just doesn't need hundreds of colonists.

Edit: Also I never said anything about having performance issues. I have optimisations coming up, but it's certainly not killing the game at the moment.
The part bolded and underlined is exactly why to me the "use the DF system, it'll be efficient" approach is significantly problematic.

In dwarf fortress, you're dealing with top down flat tiles on which a single item is placed on the tile, but dwarfs are able to freely travel through any and all placed objects providing the object in question is not tagged as exceptions to the rule, so a dwarf will gladly be allowed to simply go from one node to the next regardless to if there is a cabinet in the way, on the understanding that the tile is not reflective of the actual space in question but just a simplified representation.

In a 3D environment that is actually representative of the real environment, this isn't possible (to what extent it isn't possible depends on what you want to allow and disallow of course) and other requirements are introduced such as the need to actually navigate across the real space of tiles based on the free areas available that a unit could theoretically pass through (and then some) around objects placed freely across the environment, rather than the dwarf fortress approach of tile assignment of objects and permitting transitioning through objects regardless due to it not having any significance within the scope of how DF is presented... hence not needing some of the more bulkier logic in that regard, and being much less demanding in key area that other game environments simply can't do.

As soon as you expand from just navigating around placed objects, to starting to deal with room tiles that change passable dimensions in themselves due to their shape (door ways, hatches with ladders, bulkheads to name some examples) then I can't see how someone could get far using something like DFs approach without having to spend significant amount of time deconstructing and rebuilding someone elses work to do something it wasn't designed to do even in a general sense in the first place, let alone constantly for every unit in the game independently... in which case you're better off just making something new that is tailored for your own needs and instead just try and take inspiration from other existing systems where it could lead to improvements.

But maybe I am just being naive. :oops:
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kevok
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Re: Pathfinding accuracy rewrite

Post by kevok » Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:37 pm

SimoRoth wrote: Terrain is in large chunks as an aesthetic choice. Agents in the world path find in 1m increments, but walk freely through the environment. They avoid small items on the floor and from bumping into each other.
So pathfinding sounds like it's grid based, with a 1m width.
SimoRoth wrote: Not to mention... Toady doesn't have to draw the characters. Our characters are incredibly detailed high res skinned animated agents.
I don't see how 3d rendering has any effect on pathfinding speed.

SimoRoth wrote: Edit: Also I never said anything about having performance issues. I have optimisations coming up, but it's certainly not killing the game at the moment.
This probably isn't a performance issue at the minute, but when your colonists have longer distances to go and more wrong paths to take pathfinding time increases greatly.
Tikigod wrote: In dwarf fortress, you're dealing with top down flat tiles on which a single item is placed on the tile, but dwarfs are able to freely travel through any and all placed objects providing the object in question is not tagged as exceptions to the rule, so a dwarf will gladly be allowed to simply go from one node to the next regardless to if there is a cabinet in the way, on the understanding that the tile is not reflective of the actual space in question but just a simplified representation.
So wherever there's an impassable object you mark its 1m grid tiles as impassable. </problem>
Tikigod wrote: As soon as you expand from just navigating around placed objects, to starting to deal with room tiles that change passable dimensions in themselves due to their shape (door ways, hatches with ladders, bulkheads to name some examples) then I can't see how someone could get far using something like DFs approach without having to spend significant amount of time deconstructing and rebuilding someone elses work to do something it wasn't designed to do even in a general sense in the first place, let alone constantly for every unit in the game independently... in which case you're better off just making something new that is tailored for your own needs and instead just try and take inspiration from other existing systems where it could lead to improvements.
Possibly have two pathing masks, so that if an object changes state from open to closed or something like that, you switch to the other pathing mask.

I don't see why you two are getting hung up on the 3D thing. If it's passable, it's passable. If not, it's not. Find the quickest route through the passable section to your destination. Unless you are using like tunnels or airducts or something where there is a height-clearance limit, then it all should boil down to a 2d pathing map just like DF's.
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